Truth News Australia

Subscribe to TNRA

Archives 2008/08

TNRA 29 August 2008

August 29, 2008, part 1 of 1.
Download mp3 » click here

31 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 4

Categories: [ ]

Tonight we bring you a TNRA exclusive on vaccination and the big brother state.

Last week it was reported in the major media that a Sydney family was on the run from The Department of Community Services and the Police after the Supreme Court issued an order for the the forcible Hep B vaccination of their new-born child.

On the show we have Meryl Dorey, spokesperson for the Australian Vaccination Network. Meryl is currently trying to help the fugitive couple to find legal represention.

Meryl Dorey is a mother of 4 children aged between 12 and 19 years. Her eldest child had several severe reactions to his vaccinations – events which started her on the path to investigating this issue more thoroughly. Through more than 18 years of exhaustive research in medical journals and medical texts, Meryl has come to the conclusion that for a certain proportion of the population, the benefits of vaccination do not outweigh the risks.

In 1994, Meryl combined her energies with a group of parents and health professionals to form the Australian Vaccination Network. The AVN has continued ever since and is dedicated to:

  • ensuring that information on the risks and ineffectiveness of vaccines if made available to anyone seeing it;

  • making sure that vaccination is never made compulsory;

  • pushing for independent peer-reviewed research of vaccination including double-blind studies which have never yet been done.


More Links for tonight's show

Australian Vaccination Network

Compulsory Vaccination - It's here!

Parents on the run with baby after refusing vaccination

Sydney Morning Herald
Kate Benson Medical Reporter
August 23, 2008


A SYDNEY couple was on the run with their two-day-old baby last night after the Department of Community Services took out a Supreme Court order to have the boy vaccinated against hepatitis B.


Sydney parents under vaccination court order were threatened with arrest by hospital staff

The Australian
August 23 2008


A SYDNEY couple are in hiding after the Department of Community Services (DoCS) took out a court order to have their three-day-old boy vaccinated against hepatitis B.


Please contact Meryl Dorey at www.avn.org.au for more information about vaccination and your rights.

Thanks for listening!

Hereward & Josh

‘9/11 Truth’ activists march through Denver

29 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/911_Truth_activists_march_through_Denver_0827.html

08/27/2008 @ 10:39 am
Filed by Nick Juliano

911 Truth Protest, Denver August 2008DENVER -- Around 100 activists convinced that the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 were perpetrated by dark and mysterious actors within the US government marched across the city Tuesday in a sanctioned protest that resulted in no confrontations with police.

Members of the so-called "9/11 Truth" movement gathered outside Denver's city hall proceeding to snake through cordoned off streets towards the Pepsi Center, where the Democratic National Convention is being held this week. Radio host Alex Jones, who runs the conspiracy theory Web site infowars.com and is a leader of the movement led demonstrators in chants of "9/11 was and inside job" and "Down with the New World Order."

Denver police on bicycles preceded the marchers through an empty street just outside of downtown. Few Democratic delegates saw the protesters as they marched -- a goal the parade route seemed designed to achieve.

Along with the activists, the march included a mock parade float. Labeled "God's Gitmo," it displayed protesters wearing masks depicting George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, John McCain and Barack Obama locked up behind a chain-link fence.

The march never got very close to the Pepsi Center itelf, which was surrounded by a security perimeter more than two blocks from the main entrance, but it did snake past a back entrance to the security perimeter around 2 p.m., when a scattering of delegates, reporters and other guests were arriving to the convention.

Stopping outside the gates, Jones and the marchers outlined their view that the 9/11 attacks were a "false flag" operation carried out by the US government for the sake of starting wars in the Middle East. At least a dozen police in riot gear stood guard near the outer entrance to the convention site, but the protesters had no intention of causing trouble. They moved on after about 15 minutes.

"That was the most organized anarchy I've ever seen," remarked one woman standing inside the security fences.

Moving on from the convention site entrance, the protesters decided to break up their march rather than continue into the designated free speech zone tucked off a corner of the convention site. The area's been dubbed the "freedom cage" by activists in town to protest the conventions.

The demonstrators reconvened near Denver's union station later Tuesday afternoon and set up behind the MSNBC set that had been erected nearby. They waved signs and chanted while Hardball was broadcast.

The show's host seemed at best bemused by the display. At one point during a commercial break, Matthews stepped to the edge of the set and seemed to taunt the demonstrators, making a "you're crazy" gesture circling his finger around his ear.

9/11 Truth Movement: Let’s Focus on Building 7

25 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

George Washington's Blog
Saturday, August 23, 2008

The government has handed us a golden opportunity.

By admitting that building 7 was not severely structurally damaged by debris falling from the Twin Towers, by admitting that diesel stored in the building was not what caused the building to collapse, and by ridiculously claiming that thermal expansion caused the first collapse of a modern steel-framed high-rise in history because of some "new phenomenon" that hasn't been taken into account before, NIST has set itself up for easy rebuttal.

And unlike the Twin Towers, which involved fancy top-down special effects, the destruction of WTC 7 looked like a classic demolition. Anyone who is shown a clip of 7 and a controlled demolition will see the perfect similarity.

Even polls at AOL and other mainstream sites show that the public isn't buying NIST's explanation.

So even if you believe that directed energy weapons, nuclear bombs or little green men brought down the Twin Towers, can you please put that aside for a little while?

If we don't focus on building 7, its stunning parallel to known controlled demolitions, and the obvious misrepresentations by NIST about why 7 collapsed, we are hurting and distracting the momentum towards truth and justice.

This is not to say that thermite, rdx or other methods weren't also used in building 7, in addition to more old-fashion methods. But the destruction of wtc 7 looks so "normal" by controlled demolition standards that any mention of directed energy weapons is not only not necessary, but it is hugely counter-productive.

Also, I don't believe directed energy weapons or nukes were used on 9/11. But my suggestion in this essay is separate and apart from my belief, and focuses on what will be most effective to spread truth to the public.

And I am not saying that we should ignore foreknowledge and warnings, protection of patsies, wire transfers, put options, stand downs and Norad's shifting stories, Cheney saying "the order still stands", Zelikow's myth-making role on the 9/11 Commission, or any of the numerous other facts showing that 9/11 was intentionally allowed, aided and abetted by elements within the U.S. government and defense industry.

What I am saying is that we should focus on the best evidence . . . and WTC 7 and NIST's weak excuse are some of the best evidence. And WTC 7 is getting alot of attention right now, right on the heels of the FBI's lame explanation for the anthrax attacks, the fake Iraq-9/11 memo, Cheney wanting to create a false incident to start a war with Iran, Bush wanting to paint a plane then shoot it down to justify the Iraq war, and other instances of deception by the government. NIST's shallow explanation of building 7 is part of this torrent of obvious government lies leaking out at this time. Let's use it (in a couple of months, some other aspect of 9/11 will probably take focus . . . but for now, building 7 is uniquely timely).

Finally, no, I am not the leader of the 9/11 truth movement. Indeed, I don't even really believe in having leaders. My philosophy is "the best idea wins", and I don't care whether it is your idea, my idea or someone else's idea.

If you agree with this essay, please follow it. If you don't, that's fine . . . but please explain why not.

TNRA 22 August 2008

August 22, 2008, part 1 of 1.
Download mp3 » click here

24 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 41
By Hereward Fenton

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement, NIST, WTC7 ]

On tonight's show we present in in-depth analysis of the NIST WTC 7 Investigation, with engineer and registered member of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 TruthJohn Bursill.

Information relevant to tonight's show:

Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division Calls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation

AE911Truth Press Conference 8/21/08 Response to NIST Final Report on WTC 7

NIST Press Release


Report and Recommendations for Improving Building Safety Released for Comment
August 21, 2008 | Related Documents

Shyam Sunder, NIST lead investigator

GAITHERSBURG, Md.—The fall of the 47-story World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) in New York City late in the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, was primarily due to fires, the Commerce Department’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) announced today following an extensive, three-year scientific and technical building and fire safety investigation. This was the first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building, the agency stated as it released for public comment its WTC investigation report and 13 recommendations for improving building and fire safety.

“Our study found that the fires in WTC 7, which were uncontrolled but otherwise similar to fires experienced in other tall buildings, caused an extraordinary event,” said NIST WTC Lead Investigator Shyam Sunder. “Heating of floor beams and girders caused a critical support column to fail, initiating a fire-induced progressive collapse that brought the building down.”

NIST WTC 7 Investigation Finds Building Fires Caused Collapse

23 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html

Report and Recommendations for Improving Building Safety Released for Comment
August 21, 2008 | Related Documents 

Shyam Sunder, NIST lead investigator

GAITHERSBURG, Md.—The fall of the 47-story World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) in New York City late in the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, was primarily due to fires, the Commerce Department’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) announced today following an extensive, three-year scientific and technical building and fire safety investigation. This was the first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building, the agency stated as it released for public comment its WTC investigation report and 13 recommendations for improving building and fire safety.

“Our study found that the fires in WTC 7, which were uncontrolled but otherwise similar to fires experienced in other tall buildings, caused an extraordinary event,” said NIST WTC Lead Investigator Shyam Sunder. “Heating of floor beams and girders caused a critical support column to fail, initiating a fire-induced progressive collapse that brought the building down.”

“Video and photographic evidence combined with detailed computer simulations show that neither explosives nor fuel oil fires played a role in the collapse of WTC 7,” Sunder said. The NIST investigation team also determined that other elements of the building’s construction—namely trusses, girders and cantilever overhangs that were used to transfer loads from the building superstructure to the columns of the electric substation (over which WTC 7 was constructed) and foundation below—did not play a significant role in the collapse.

According to the report, a key factor leading to the eventual collapse of WTC 7 was thermal expansion of long-span floor systems at temperatures “hundreds of degrees below those typically considered in current practice for fire resistance ratings." WTC 7 used a structural system design in widespread use.

Video -The collapse of World Trade Center 7

Citing its one new recommendation (the other 12 are reiterated from the previously completed investigation of the World Trade Center towers, WTC 1 and 2), the NIST investigation team said that “while the partial or total collapse of a tall building due to fires is a rare event, we strongly urge building owners, operators and designers to evaluate buildings to ensure the adequate fire performance of the structural system. Of particular concern are the effects of thermal expansion in buildings with one or more of the following features: long-span floor systems, connections not designed for thermal effects, asymmetric floor framing and/or composite floor systems.” Engineers, the team said, should be able to design cost-effective fixes to address any areas of concern identified by such evaluations.

The investigators also reported that if the city water main had not been cut by the collapse of World Trade Center towers 1 and 2 (WTC 1 and WTC 2), operating sprinklers in WTC 7 would likely have prevented its collapse. “Nevertheless,” Sunder said, “we recommend that building standards and codes be strengthened beyond their current intent to achieve life safety by preventing structural collapse even during severe fires like this one, when sprinklers do not function, do not exist or are overwhelmed by fire.”

Sunder identified several existing, emerging or even anticipated capabilities that could have helped prevent WTC 7’s collapse. He cautioned that the degree to which these capabilities improve performance remains to be evaluated. Possible options for developing cost-effective fixes include:

  • More robust connections and framing systems to better resist effects of thermal expansion on the structural system.
     
    Structural systems expressly designed to prevent progressive collapse, which is the spread of local damage from a single initiating event, from element to element, eventually resulting in the collapse of an entire structure or a disproportionately large part of it. Current model building codes do not require that buildings be designed to resist progressive collapse.
  • Better thermal insulation (i.e., reduced conductivity and/or increased thickness) to limit heating of structural steel and to minimize both thermal expansion and weakening effects. Insulation has been used to protect steel strength, but it could be used to maintain a lower temperature in the steel framing to limit thermal expansion.
  • Improved compartmentation in tenant areas to limit the spread of fires.
  • Thermally resistant window assemblies to limit breakage, reduce air supply and retard fire growth.

 

The 12 recommendations reiterated from the WTC towers investigation address several areas, including specific improvements to building standards, codes and practices; changes to, or the establishment of, evacuation and emergency response procedures; and research and other appropriate actions needed to help prevent future building failures.

Determining the probable collapse sequence for WTC 7, NIST found that the impact of debris from the collapse of WTC 1 ignited fires on at least 10 floors of WTC 7, and the fires burned out of control on six lower floors. The heat from these uncontrolled fires caused thermal expansion of the steel beams on the lower floors of the east side of WTC 7, damaging the floor framing on multiple floors. Eventually, a girder on Floor 13 lost its connection to a critical interior column that provided support for the long floor spans on the east side of the building. The displaced girder and other local fire-induced damage caused Floor 13 to collapse, beginning a cascade of floor failures down to the fifth floor. Many of these floors had already been at least partially weakened by the fires in the vicinity of the critical column. This collapse of floors left the critical column unsupported over nine stories.

“When this critical column buckled due to lack of floor supports, it was the first domino in the chain,” Sunder explained. “What followed in rapid succession was a progression of structural failures. Failure first occurred all the way to the roof line—involving all three interior columns on the most eastern side of the building. Then, progressing from east to west across WTC 7, all of the columns in the core of the building failed. Finally, the entire façade collapsed.”

drawing showing locations of columns of typical WTC 7 floor

Diagram 1—Typical WTC 7 floor showing locations of columns (numbered). The buckling of Column 79 was the initiating event that led to the collapse of WTC 7. The buckling resulted from fire-induced damage to floors around Column 79, failure of the girder between Columns 44 and 79, and cascading floor failures. [Download high-res version]

The investigation team considered the possibility of other factors playing a role in the collapse of WTC 7, including the possible use of explosives, fires fed by the fuel supply tanks in and under the building, and damage from the falling debris of WTC 1.

The team said that the smallest blast event capable of crippling the critical column would have produced a “sound level of 130 to 140 decibels at a distance of half a mile,” yet no noise this loud was reported by witnesses or recorded on videos.

As for fuel fires, the team found that they could not have been sustained long enough, could not have generated sufficient heat to fail a critical column, and/or would have produced “large amounts of visible smoke” from Floors 5 and 6, which was not observed.

Finally, the report notes that “while debris impact from the collapse of WTC 1 initiated fires in WTC 7, the resulting structural damage had little effect in causing the collapse of WTC 7.”

The investigation team found that the design of WTC 7 was generally consistent with the New York City building code in effect at the time. The estimated 4,000 occupants of WTC 7 on the morning of Sept. 11 were evacuated without any fatalities or serious injuries.

To reach the conclusions in its report, NIST complemented its in-house expertise with private-sector technical experts; accumulated an extensive collection of documents, photographs and videos related to the WTC events of 9/11; conducted first-person interviews of WTC 7 occupants and emergency responders; analyzed the evacuation and emergency response operations in and around WTC 7; and performed the most complex computer simulations ever conducted to model a building’s response behavior and determine its collapse sequence due to a combination of debris impact damage, fires and a progression of structural failures from local fire-induced damage to collapse initiation, and, ultimately, to global collapse.

NIST welcomes comments on the draft report and recommendations—available online at http://wtc.nist.gov—received by noon Eastern Daylight Time on Sept.15, 2008. Comments (instructions for submission are available at http://wtc.nist.gov) may be submitted via:

    * e-mail to wtc@nist.gov;
    * fax to (301) 869-6275; or
    * surface mail to WTC Technical Information Repository, Attn: Stephen Cauffman, NIST, 100 Bureau Dr., Stop 8611, Gaithersburg, Md. 20899-8610.

The NIST investigation of WTC 7 was conducted under the National Construction Safety Team (NCST) Act, as part of its overall building and fire safety investigation of the World Trade Center disaster. The act gives NIST the responsibility for conducting fact-finding investigations of building failures that resulted in substantial loss of life or that posed significant potential of substantial loss of life. NIST has no regulatory authority under the NCST Act.

As an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce, NIST promotes U.S. innovation and industrial competitiveness by advancing measurement science, standards and technology in ways that enhance economic security and improve our quality of life.

NIST to Release Report and Recommendations from Investigation of World Trade Center Building 7

20 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

Agency Will Hold Public Webcast on August 21
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/calmed/wtc_081808.html

NIST - National Institute of Standards and Technology

Gaithersburg, Md. -- The Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) will hold a media briefing and live public webcast on Aug. 21, 2008, in Gaithersburg, Md., on the findings and recommendations from its building and fire safety investigation of the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7). WTC 7 was a 47-story building that fell nearly seven hours after the World Trade Center (WTC) towers collapsed following the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

The NIST WTC 7 report will present the probable collapse sequence for the building and will provide recommendations for improving building and fire safety in other buildings similar to WTC 7. The draft WTC 7 investigation report released at the briefing will be open for public comment through noon Eastern Daylight Time on Sept. 15, 2008.

Shyam Sunder, director of the NIST Building and Fire Research Laboratory and lead investigator for the federal building and fire safety investigation of the World Trade Center disaster, will present the report and answer questions from reporters at the briefing. The public will be able to view the briefing through a live webcast that will be accessible from NIST's WTC Web site at http://wtc.nist.gov

What: A media briefing and public webcast on the findings and recommendations of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report on the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7).
When: Thursday, Aug. 21, 2008 11 a.m. - Noon Eastern Daylight Time
Web Info : The WTC investigation Web site at http://wtc.nist.gov will contain links to the webcast as well as accompanying materials such as the full report, news release, and accompanying visuals at the time of the briefing.
Reporters: Credentialed journalists who wish to register for the media briefing should contact Ben Stein, (301) 975-3097, ben.stein@nist.gov

Video: Sydney Truth Action - 11 August 2008

19 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

11th August - a bright, crisp winter's day in Sydney.

As always the encounter with passers by was interesting, informative and very worthwhile.

For information about public events planned for September 2008, please visit this page: http://www.911oz.com/weblogid/168

Enjoy!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sczZLSybs_s

Four Principles of Disinformation

16 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

After several years reading and studying, I have come to the realisation that there are some key principles to the art of disinformation, and that these principles need to be understood in order to ultimately defeat it.

1. Disinfo is a weapon
This is often the hardest principle to grasp and it is also the most important. Disinfo is, and always has been, a tactic used in war. When it is used in "apparent peacetime" it is still a weapon of war, for war encompasses far more than just bullets and bombs. Disinformation is indeed one of the most important tools in the military arsenal.

2. Disinfo is aimed at a designated enemy
This principle follows naturally from the first. Disinfo is rarely omni-directional or generic - in order to work at all it must have a vector. As with conventional weapons, this vector is in the direction of the group/individual designated as enemy. When directed at an individual, disinformation is often used as part of a scam - think of the Nigerian chain letter or those emails telling you that you have won the lottery.

In the case of the internet scam the goal is to rob the enemy/victim, but the basic tactic is more or less the same when conning a citizen into supporting a war based on a false flag terrorist attack, only in this case the concept of "enemy" must be expanded to include both the citizen and the perceived external enemy.

3. Disinfo succeeds by disguise.

Since disinfo is rooted in deception, it must be disguised as something other than disinfo in order to fulfill its function. Conversely, once disinfo is exposed it no longer "works" to the same degree. An example of this might be the disinfo claim that "no plane" hit the WTC on September 11.

This claim works as disinfo only to the extent that most people believe that the view is genuinely believed by those who promote it. If, by contrast, it could be proven that the "no plane" theory was concocted in by the CIA in Langley Virginia, then it would lose its effectiveness. Perhaps surprisingly, the observation that the "WTC no plane" theory is flawed does not neutralise it as disinfo, since it is quite common for people to believe things in good faith which turn out to be false. In order for the disinfo to be fully neutralised it must be exposed as a deliberate reverse propaganda operation orchestrated for the purpose of weakening a designated enemy.

4. Disinfo sews division and confusion in the enemy
As a weapon, effective disinfo has the combined effect of creating/exacerbating division and confusion in the enemy. This, of course, weakens the enemy, which is the military objective. As an example of how disinfo weakens and divides, let us return again to the "no plane hit the WTC" proposition. To start with, this proposition potentially has the effect of creating a schism within the 9/11 movement. It also has the effect of creating confusion or the perception of confusion when mixed up with the quite distinct proposition that "no plane hit the Pentagon".

The latter proposition, although controversial, is not (in the writer's opinion) to be discarded, for the simple reason that the authorites have refused to release the video which would prove their case. But, the "no plane hit the WTC" proposition unfortunately gets conflated with the "no plane hit the Pentagon" proposition, creating a fog of confusion which may lead the uneducated outsider to conclude that all alternative theories are crazy. This of course achieves the goal of weakening the enemy (ie. the people's movement seeking truth about 9/11).

I hope you found this exposition of four principles of disinformation helpful.

Hitler, the big lie and 9/11

14 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

"... in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie..."

(Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p.134)

The above quote explains many things about why the official 9/11 conspiracy theory is not investigated or questioned even by those who in other situations would sieze on any opportunity to attack the status quo.

Perhaps Hitler was merely describing how cognitive dissonance coupled with extreme violence works in the favour of power elites.

Possibly this stategy of violence + deceit exploits a deep instinctive mechanism which humans have evolved in order to preserve group cohesion: when your tribe is attacked you rally around your leader - for good or ill.

An interview with Glen Clancy (Fool Me Twice)

08 August 2008 | Permalink | comments: 0

Categories: [ 9/11 Truth Movement ]

Download mp3 » click here

On 1st August Truth News Radio Australia interviewed Glen Clancy, creator of the film Fool Me Twice, which explores evidence that the 2002 Bali Bombings were orchestrated by intelligence operatives, while the governments of Australia and Indonesia looked the other way.

During the interview we get into an interesting discussion of the physics of the explosions which devastated a large area of Kuta Beach, and the coverup of vital information such as the alteration of flight log data at Bali's International airport.

We also examine the Howard Government's willful deceptions in regard to the East Timorese independence campaign which led to many deaths, culminating in the Australian led military intervention (INTERFET) in 1999.

Glen currently lives and works in Japan, but he is planning to return to Australia soon. We look forward to his next project.

Fool Me Twice is a must see film, and you can watch the whole production for free on Google Video.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

Listen Live

Recent Comments

John Pilger and his mate chumpsky are disingenous gate keepers. Nothing they say here is unheard of, or un reported elsewhere.. The whole world knows of why israel is copping justifiable criticism. They pretend to be on the side of truth and justice, all the time perpetuating the lies.

Pilger stated the most “plausible” scenario for 911, is that “they” let it happen.  His good mate julian assange is on the record saying that those who question the official account of 911 “annoy” him.  After more than a decade of investigation of the evidence, the consensus would suggest the most “plausible” explanation would be that “they” engineered, executed and implemented the cover up.

Pilger is therefore either willfully ignorant, or deliberately deceptive.

By Andrew Adams on 2014 10 25 - 10:51:03
From the entry 'How you have been betrayed by your government and your media'.

Leonard Clampett,

I wish you could point out in one sentence or two why you think my explanation is wrong regarding increased contrail activity that precedes approaching weather fronts.

Copying and pasting heaps of loosely related paragraphs is very unconvincing.

On the good side, I see that you now seem to acknowledge that supersaturation in the atmosphere exists. Several pages earlier, you wrote: “Firstly let me iterate that there is no such thing supersaturation in the free atmosphere at any altitude.” So some advancement there.

However, you picked the wrong sort of supersaturation. Persistent contrails depend on supersaturation with respect to ice instead of supersaturation with respect to water. This occurs at much lower levels of relative humidity (with respect to water); it can happen below 70% already and is in no way limited to the vicinity of thunderstorms.

We have been through this before, you know. That’s why I’m repeating the quotes and their reference from scientic papers that I already gave you on that previous page:

From The dependence of contrail formation on the weather pattern and altitude in the North Atlantic:

Aircraft flying through cold ice-supersaturated air produce persistent contrails which contribute to the climate impact of aviation[/url]

From Cirrus, contrails, and ice supersaturated regions in high pressure systems at northern mid latitudes:

The radiosonde data showed that the upper troposphere was very often supersaturated with respect to ice.

From Formation, properties and climatic effects of contrails:

Condensation trails (contrails) are aircraft induced cirrus clouds, which may persist and grow to large cirrus cover in ice-supersaturated air

From Properties of Ice-Supersaturated Layers Based on Radiosonde Data Analysis:

While supersaturation with respect to ice is not required to form a contrail, it is necessary for the contrail to persist for long times.

From Contrail formation in aircraft wakes

[...] contrails form when the air surrounding the particles becomes supersaturated with respect to ice.

From Aviation and the Global Atmosphere:

Each of these freezing mechanisms requires that the atmosphere be highly supersaturated with respect to the vapor pressure of ice before crystals can form.

 

By Josh on 2014 10 24 - 04:59:59
From the entry 'Contrails dissipate quickly whereas chemtrails linger?'.

Josh,
I believe you are simply out of your depth trying to impress others with knowledge you allege to have gleaned from glider flying instructors, and, as you write, the University of North Carolina you have “linked” to, or you are a mis-informationist, a shill, a useful tool to others. Either way you are simply misguided. Your quoting of terms you have read in textbooks does you no service. Your claims about supersaturation demonstrate your lack of knowledge. You need to understand supersaturation in regard to meteorology is mainly associated with thunderheads, hail and freezing conditions way beyond the normal. Have you ever seen a cumulonimbus topping out at 60,000 feet? I can say without fear of intelligent contradiction that you have never, in a glider, experienced a micro-burst at low level because you would, or should, never have been making an approach to land in such conditions. Supersaturation can result from the internal violence associated with the updrafts inherent in a low level thunderstorm.  Being a glider pilot does not mean you have sat and passed any of the senior level meteorology examinations as I have done in both Australia and Canada. To be a private glider pilot you only need to have passed the meteorology examination for a private pilot to demonstrate you have sufficient knowledge of basic meteorology to hopefully fly safely. Did you know that urine can become supersaturated and cause kidney stones? No massive changes of freezing level temperatures there, I can assure you. No doubt you will respond with some inane theory, but if it makes you feel superior please do so. I hope you are not passing on your inanities to young glider pilots around the bar at the gliding club whilst expanding you ego at their expense. Because meteorology is more of an art than a science, using science to compose theories, I can set you an examination with particular details regarding a place, and no matter whether you answer yes or no to the question posed, I cannot mark you wrong if you back up your answer with logical reasoning. e.g. “Will there be fog in the morning at place A given the following forecast ambient conditions?” Nobody can be 100% sure of the answer and must wait and see if the forecast proves correct.

Simple physics regarding clouds from Wikipedia for your assistance. There is much more from other sources but I do not have the time to train you.
Supersaturation.
1. To cause a chemical solution to be more highly concentrated than is normally possible under given conditions of temperature and pressure.
2. To cause a vapor to exceed the normal saturation vapor pressure at a given temperature.

Cloud physics is the study of the physical processes that lead to the formation, growth and precipitation of clouds. Clouds consist of microscopic droplets of liquid water (warm clouds), tiny crystals of ice (cold clouds), or both (mixed phase clouds). Cloud droplets initially form by the condensation of water vapor onto condensation nuclei when the supersaturation of air exceeds a critical value according to Köhler theory. Cloud condensation nuclei are necessary for cloud droplets formation because of the Kelvin effect, which describes the change in saturation vapor pressure due to a curved surface. At small radii, the amount of supersaturation needed for condensation to occur is so large, that it does not happen naturally. Raoult’s Law describes how the vapor pressure is dependent on the amount of solute in a solution. At high concentrations, when the cloud droplets are small, the supersaturation required is smaller than without the presence of a nucleus.

In warm clouds, larger cloud droplets fall at a higher terminal velocity because the drag force on smaller droplets is larger than on large droplets. The large droplet can then collide with small droplet and combine to form even larger drops. When the drops become large enough so that the acceleration due to gravity is much larger than the acceleration due to drag, the drops can fall to the earth as precipitation. The collision and coalescence is not as important in mixed phase clouds where the Bergeron process dominates. Other important processes that form precipitation are riming, when a supercooled liquid drop collides with a solid snowflake, and aggregation, when two solid snowflakes collide and combine. The precise mechanics of how a cloud forms and grows is not completely understood, but scientists have developed theories explaining the structure of clouds by studying the microphysics of individual droplets. Advances in weather radar and satellite technology have also allowed the precise study of clouds on a large scale.

History of cloud physics

The history of cloud microphysics developed in the 19th century and is described in several publications. Otto von Guericke originated the idea that clouds were composed of water bubbles. In 1847 Agustus Waller used spider web to examine droplets under the microscope. These observations were confirmed by William Henry Dines in 1880 and Richard Assmann in 1884.
Formation
Rising packets of moist air

As water evaporates from an area of the earth surface, the air over that area becomes moist. Moist air is lighter than the surrounding dry air, creating an unstable situation. When enough moist air has accumulated, all the moist air rises as a single packet, without mixing with the surrounding air. As more moist air forms along the surface, the process repeats, resulting in a series of discrete packets of moist air rising to form clouds.
Supersaturation

The amount of water that can exist as vapor in a given volume increases with the temperature. When the amount of water vapor is in equilibrium above a flat surface of water the level of vapor pressure is called saturation and the relative humidity is 100%. At this equilibrium there are equal numbers of molecules evaporating from the water as there are condensing back into the water. If the relative humidity becomes greater than 100%, it is called supersaturated. Supersaturation occurs in the absence of condensation nuclei, for example the flat surface of water.

Since the saturation vapor pressure is proportional to temperature, cold air has a lower saturation point than warm air. The difference between these values is the basis for the formation of clouds. When saturated air cools, it can no longer contain the same amount of water vapor. If the conditions are right, the excess water will condense out of the air until the lower saturation point is reached. Another possibility is that the water stays in vapor form, even though it is beyond the saturation point, resulting in supersaturation.

Supersaturation of more than 1–2% relative to water is rarely seen in the atmosphere, since cloud condensation nuclei are usually present. Much higher degrees of supersaturation are possible in clean air, and are the basis of the cloud chamber.
Supercooling

Water droplets commonly remain as liquid water and do not freeze, even well below 0 °C (32 °F), because of the high surface tension of each microdroplet, which prevents them from expanding to form larger ice crystals. Without ice nuclei supercooled water droplets can exist down to about −40 °C (−40 °F), at which point they will spontaneously freeze.
Collision-coalescence
Main article: Coalescence (meteorology)

One theory explaining how the behavior of individual droplets leads to the formation of clouds is the collision-coalescence process. Droplets suspended in the air will interact with each other, either by colliding and bouncing off each other or by combining to form a larger droplet. Eventually, the droplets become large enough that they fall to the earth as precipitation. The collision-coalescence process does not make up a significant part of cloud formation as water droplets have a relatively high surface tension. In addition, the occurrence of collision-coalescence is closely related to entrainment-mixing processes.[7]
Bergeron process
Main article: Bergeron process

The primary mechanism for the formation of ice clouds was discovered by Tor Bergeron. The Bergeron process notes that the saturation vapor pressure of water, or how much water vapor a given volume can hold, depends on what the vapor is interacting with. Specifically, the saturation vapor pressure with respect to ice is lower than the saturation vapor pressure with respect to water. Water vapor interacting with a water droplet may be saturated, at 100% relative humidity, when interacting with a water droplet, but the same amount of water vapor would be supersaturated when interacting with an ice particle. The water vapor will attempt to return to equilibrium, so the extra water vapor will condense into ice on the surface of the particle. These ice particles end up as the nuclei of larger ice crystals. This process only happens at temperatures between 0 °C (32 °F) and −40 °C (−40 °F). Below −40 °C (−40 °F), liquid water will spontaneously nucleate, and freeze. The surface tension of the water allows the droplet to stay liquid well below its normal freezing point. When this happens, it is now supercooled liquid water. The Bergeron process relies on supercooled liquid water interacting with ice nuclei to form larger particles. If there are few ice nuclei compared to the amount of SLW, droplets will be unable to form. A process whereby scientists seed a cloud with artificial ice nuclei to encourage precipitation is known as cloud seeding. This can help cause precipitation in clouds that otherwise may not rain. Cloud seeding adds excess artificial ice nuclei which shifts the balance so that there are many nuclei compared to the amount of supercooled liquid water. An over-seeded cloud will form many particles, but each will be very small. This can be done as a preventative measure for areas that are at risk for hail storms.
Dynamic phase hypothesis

The second critical point in the formation of clouds is their dependence on updrafts. As particles group together to form water droplets, they will quickly be pulled down to earth by the force of gravity. The droplets would quickly dissipate and the cloud will never form. However, if warm air interacts with cold air, an updraft can form. Warm air is less dense than colder air, so the warm air rises. The air traveling upward buffers the falling droplets, and can keep them in the air much longer than they would otherwise stay. In addition, the air cools as it rises, so any moisture in the updraft will then condense into liquid form, adding to the amount of water available for precipitation. Violent updrafts can reach speeds of up to 180 miles per hour (290 km/h).[9] A frozen ice nucleus can pick up 0.5 inches (1.3 cm) in size traveling through one of these updrafts and can cycle through several updrafts before finally becoming so heavy that it falls to the ground. Cutting a hailstone in half shows onion-like layers of ice, indicating distinct times when it passed through a layer of super-cooled water. Hailstones have been found with diameters of up to 7 inches (18 cm).[10]
Cloud Classification
Main article: List of cloud types

Clouds are classified according to the height at which they are found, and their shape or appearance. There are three basic categories based on physical structure and process of formation. Cirriform clouds are high, thin and wispy, and are seen most extensively along the leading edges of organized weather disturbances. Stratiform clouds appear as extensive sheet-like layers, ranging from thin to moderately thick with some vertical development. They are mostly the product of large scale lift of stable air. Cumuliform clouds are formed mostly into localized heaps, rolls and/or ripples ranging from very small cloudlets of limited convection in slightly unstable air to very large towering free convective buildups when the airmass is very unstable. Clouds of limited convection that show a mix of cumuliform and stratiform characteristics are often grouped into a fourth category, stratocumuliform.

These categories are cross-classified by high, middle, low, and vertical altitude ranges into ten genus types. All cirriform clouds are classified as high and therefore constitute a single cloud genus cirrus. Stratiform and stratocumuliform clouds in the topmost region of the troposphere have the prefix cirro- added to their names yielding the genera cirrostratus and cirrocumulus. Similar clouds found at intermediate heights carry the prefix alto- resulting in the genus names altostratus and altocumulus. No height-related prefixes are used for the low altitudes, so clouds of these two physical categories based around 2 kilometres or lower are known simply as stratus and stratocumulus.

Vertically developed nimbostratus (deep stratiform), cumulus, and cumulonimbus may form anywhere from near surface to intermediates heights of around 3 kilometres and therefore, like the low clouds, have no height related prefixes. However, those capable of producing heavy precipitation or stormy weather carry a nimbo- or -nimbus designation. Of the vertically developed clouds, the cumulonimbus type is the largest and can virtually span the entire troposphere from a few hundred metres above the ground up to the tropopause. It is the cloud responsible for thunderstorms. Its complex structure often combining a cirriform top and stratocumuliform accessory clouds with an overall cumuliform structure sometimes result in this genus type being separated into a fifth physical cumulonimbiform category. This leaves the cumulus genus with its simple heaped structure as the sole purely cumuliform physical category type. Small cumulus is usually considered a low cloud genus, while taller cumulus is more often grouped with cumulonimbiform and deep stratiform genus types as vertical or multilevel.
The cloud chamber, also known as the Wilson chamber, is a particle detector used for detecting ionizing radiation.
File:Home Made Cloud Chamber.webmPlay media
A Home Made Cloud Chamber
Image taken in the Pic du Midi at 2877m in a Phywe PJ45 cloud chamber (size of surface is 45 x 45 cm). This rare picture shows in a single shot the 4 particles that we can detect in a cloud chamber : proton, electron, muon (probably) and alpha

In its most basic form, a cloud chamber is a sealed environment containing a supersaturated vapor of water or alcohol. When a charged particle (for example, an alpha or beta particle) interacts with the mixture, the fluid is ionized. The resulting ions act as condensation nuclei, around which a mist will form (because the mixture is on the point of condensation). The high energies of alpha and beta particles mean that a trail is left, due to many ions being produced along the path of the charged particle. These tracks have distinctive shapes (for example, an alpha particle’s track is broad and shows more evidence of deflection by collisions, while an electron’s is thinner and straight). When any uniform magnetic field is applied across the cloud chamber, positively and negatively charged particles will curve in opposite directions, according to the Lorentz force law with two particles of opposite charge.

Cloud chambers played a prominent role in the experimental particle physics from 1920s to the 1950s, until the advent of the bubble chamber. In particular, the discoveries of the positron in 1932, the Muon in 1936, both by Carl Anderson (awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1936), and the kaon in 1947 were made using cloud chambers as detectors. Anderson detected the positron and muon in cosmic rays.

By Leonard Clampett on 2014 10 23 - 10:18:01
From the entry 'Contrails dissipate quickly whereas chemtrails linger?'.

Geoengineering is Real: British Academic Reveals Size and Scope of Operation

“The term ‘Chemtrails’ is not a conspiracy theory either. The name can be traced back to the US Congress itself. House Bill 2977, Space Preservation Act 2001, Page 5, line 15, under the heading of “exotic weapons”.”

By Andrew Adams on 2014 10 22 - 14:17:07
From the entry 'Contrails dissipate quickly whereas chemtrails linger?'.

Engineered Drought Catastrophe, Target California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsYG5emdZp8#t=64
So Josh, your argument against chemtrails on all points. There is nothing to debate.

By Leonard Clampett on 2014 10 22 - 13:15:51
From the entry 'Contrails dissipate quickly whereas chemtrails linger?'.

I think Brendon is a good bloke. Truely an Aussie who wants the best for his beloved country. A guy who has discovered like many people that Australia   has been usurped by the parasitic Jew. This of course is nothing new as the Jews in history have been booted out of 88 different countries. Including the Uk. Which ofcourse is the snakes head, after stupid cromwell let them back in. So the city of London is the crown, oh (Not) the queen but Jew Rothschild who owns the banks. Most people I know don,t realise this, that our own RBA (Reserve Bank) is a private Rotschild bank. Rhodes schlolar is a indoctrinated Rothschild pupil. Your polititians are selected (Before) elected. Many a blood high pressure has been rectified after the truth is known. After all if you are on the field of battle, you must know your enemy. Well Done Brendon.  This Aussie is proud of you ! !

By Daveeed on 2014 10 19 - 18:34:02
From the entry 'Meet Brendon O'Connell, Australia's first political prisoner'.

Susan Lindauer is a person deserved of recognition. Her book, “Extreme Prejudice” was a revolution for me in the understanding of the devious machinations of the US government, the real lack of decent values, the total disregard of truth and the falseness of so-called patriotism.
Their treatment of this lady will forever be a disgrace, not quite bordering on other acts of perfidy such as the USS Ulysses, the 29 standing ovations in the US Joint Houses for the world’s latter day fascist, Netanyahu, or the elation displayed in the Congress on the announcement of the (first) war in Iraq, based on lies. All acts from which for me there is no recovery, ever.

So her treatment is up there with those acts, the treatment of Scott Ritter and Edward Snowden,  the establishment of Guantanamo Bay and the acts therein and the now effective loss of all respect for a country that was founded on real values. What fine people they were as well. A long time ago.

Right now we have another decent American, a scarcity these days, in Michael Mori who through his actions made people aware of how low the US had sunk in the manufacturing of evidence against people whose crimes may have been naivety, but not terrorism. The real terrorists were then and still are in Washington with a new junior chapter in Canberra, trying desperately to mix it with the big boys and in their own little way, through the mouth of the feckless “Friend of Israel”, Julie Bishop,  trying desperately to make Russia an enemy of the world through her lies on the Malaysian Airliner shoot down.

All part of the role that this naive country is engaged in for political purposes. But with a country populated by insouciant people, or is that sheeple, does anyone really give a damn. Football season has just finished. Get your priorities right.

On with the seat belts. There’s much worse to come yet.

Full marks, Susan Lindauer. You have made a serious contribution to those who think that ALL people have rights.

By Rex Williams on 2014 10 09 - 09:17:36
From the entry 'Climbing the mountain of lies to better see World War III'.

I thought after researching the nwo and having a passion for the truth I knew how the world was being run…Then, by accident I stumbled upon
http://www.tomatobubble.com/index.html
and I realised I had only scratched the surface to the lies we have been raised to believe. 
Also, check out the archives page
http://www.tomatobubble.com/id72.html
I was shocked, so if you want the rest of the story…

By sick of all the lies on 2014 10 01 - 14:30:26
From the entry 'A review of violence and intolerance in Islamic and other societies'.

Leonard Clampett,

can you point out where anyone around here wrote or somehow conveyed the opinion “that governments can, and will, do no wrong”? The fact that contrails can persist and spread doesn’t have the slightest impact on the morality of governments ...

Do you doubt the basic mechanism of cloud formation that I summarized exists? Then please explain where I got it wrong - or the University of North Carolina that I linked to - or all my flight teachers and the text books for the exam - or all the guide books about clouds.
Be specific, don’t just say “misinformation” without giving any reason. By all means, show some actual “scrutiny”, along with references.

Of course I could have introduced dry and saturated lapse rate, condensation nuclei and many more sophisticated details, but that does not alter the principal mechanism of rising, cooling and increasing RH.

By the way, your credentials are not helping, I’m afraid - at least as long as you display a basic misunderstanding of central processes like combustion or supersaturation (which you claim doesn’t even exist).

By Josh on 2014 09 27 - 07:31:30
From the entry 'Contrails dissipate quickly whereas chemtrails linger?'.

Thanks mate, greatly appreciated.

By Hereward Fenton on 2014 09 24 - 22:27:31
From the entry 'Introducing Professor Garth L Nicolson: pioneering researcher on mycoplasmas'.

Categories