It was a healthy debate.  It is clear that people have predispositions and find it difficult to believe in the prospect of “reptilians”.  <br><br>I find that people are either inquisitive and open minded to listen to conspiracy theories or close minded and don’t want to know or believe in anything other than the manufactured truth told to them by the mass controlled media.<br><br>One of the guys on the program was a cynic.  I have reason to question the holocaust story.  I remember when I was young thinking why can’t I say the word “Jew” without feeling I’m offending somebody.  Anti-semitism has been cleverly manipulated to control our thinking.<br><br>Chemtrails… I am a keen observer and I believe this is a real phenomona… it is not condensation… I have always been a sky observer… and I lived near the Sydney airport for over 25 years.. My home had a clear view of the runways as the house was up high… I never saw chemtrails in the air until recent years… in fact I first saw chemtrails in Montreal Canada in 2005 and asked my cousin what the hell the cris-crossing sky patterns were.  I was previously in Canada in 1987 and do not recall seeing that phenomena at that time.<br><br>People are pre-occupied with the entertainment industry to bother looking around themselves and notice what is really going on.<br><br>I have recently heard that High Definition TV (which is being rolled out globally and in many countries subsidised by governments) will be emitting frequencies to sedate and drug us ie. a horrific story will have no effect on us whereas in normal circumstances we might be compelled to protest or lobby our government.

In my OPINION, the lack of acceptance for David Icke is a geographic phenomenon. In England, David is a recognised character from TV and therefore I guess he is a bit more palatable to people from this continent.<br><br>I think people make a big mistake when they fixate on personality, we like or dislike other people based on our experiences and for different reasons, and we are all right from our perspective but wrong from others. I for one didn’t like how the interviewer came across, he was dismissive very opinionated but that is just the way he came across to ME, but I do not judge him for that. I realise it is how I perceived him at that moment in time, but as Katie Byron teaches, you have to ask yourself “Are you right in your assumption?”, probably not as it is at the end of the day a result of our conditioning. <br><br>People should learn to take information for being just that, “INFORMATION”! It is entirely up to you if it FEELS right (Kinesthetic), SOUNDS right (Auditory) or LOOKS right (Visual), we are all different and perceive the world in different ways (modalities)…look at the information (use due diligence)…act on it or don’t. If someone can comment on a person after he admits not to have read all of his stuff, well what can I say! That’s my opinion and some may say I am opinionated and they are right, but only from their perspective :D.<br><br>INFORMATION = INFORMATION, it is not a personality. Having personalities present information actually greatly increases our chances of exposing as many people as possible to it, and as David says don’t believe a word I say, it’s just information, make of it as you will…. Some people miss that. It’s like when I re-view the Wogan interview, I never actually heard David say he was the son of Christ, did I miss it or have other people that heard from others that he had said it then watch the interview LOOKING for the comment :D. . “there’s nothing queerer as folk” that much it true!

Harry,<br><br>From what you have said I don’t think you admit to the existence of “disinformation”? I assure you it is very real - and used by government and media every day. <br><br>Disinformation can be a very powerful weapon - it can cause confusion, provoke disputes and can discredit people. <br><br>In regard to my views - I don’t feel I need to read every word Mr. Icke wrote in order to form an opinion but maybe you can help me out here.<br><br>Since you appear to be more well versed in his writings, can you confirm or deny that he claims Prince Charles feasts on the blood of babies? I am told this is in one of his books - “The Biggest Secret” perhaps.<br><br>For some reason, David Icke’s fans always seem to have difficulty facing this - maybe because it is so embarassing ? They tend to minimise it’s importance, even though it is in books which he actively promotes to this day.<br><br>As to the claim made on the show that the lizard theories are not important because they are only a small part of his overall work, I can only say that in any con game or scam or disinfo campaign the general rule is to mix a large amount of good information with a small amount of lies - that way the average person gets confused and cannot see the wood for the trees.  <br><br>2% is probably a good proportion for disinfo. <br><br>(: cheers

for the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit…..(bible),to be carnaly minded is death…...(bible) teachers having itching ears, ever learning but never being able to come to the knowledge of the truth ....(bible),David icke has been completely misunderstood, sorry folk but your truth movement sounds like a bunch of confusion (babylon) once again the old book is right,“how can two walk together unless they agree”, take some advice, listen to william marrion branhams life story(la 1959)&how; the angel came to me,(chicago1955) best wishes on your quest for truth…steve

re: “David icke has been completely misunderstood” - by whom and in what way?

Hereward,<br><br> First off I am not a FAN of anyone, I am not defending David Icke, but what I do do is take the information he is presenting, I do not pass judgment on it, I carry on investigating and any information he has presented will eventually prove itself worthy or not, any information that was new and relevant to my life and the people around me I will investigate directly going to quoted sources, if there are quoted sources I will yahoogoogleask the information.<br><br>I personally understand that there is disinformation out there, but even disinformation is just information at the end of the day and if one doesn’t do one’s own due diligence then one is probably a woman that bought some nice Florida swamp land thinking it was condo ready.<br><br>True, you don’t HAVE TO read all of his material to have an opinion, you can just form an opinion.<br><br>What is the issue with the blood drinking thing? “I have been told”, “Biggest Secret perhaps”, umm are you quoting David Icke on hearsay by any chance? Again I am not defending David Icke, he is just a MAN and I am not a fan, I have readseen his “INFORMATION”. The fact that Charles is accused of drinking blood or that “anybody” is accused of drinking blood, I eat Black Pudding for breakfast. I think it is so hard to believe because it is outside of your box. I personally don’t go for the Charles blood drinking thing but some cults do drink blood as part of their rituals, so I have read :D, but it is all just information, it doesn’t feel right to me so my modality must be kinaesthetic .<br><br>I get the impression you are painting David Icke as a person to be avoided at all cost and people are potentially missing all of the valid information he is bringing to the world stage. Even though you may be one of the many people that may have only just recently come across David Icke as person, I can see your reluctance to consider him as anything other than a shill for the new world order, Ummm perspectives again, in the UK people have lived with his life’s story for a good while so have a different perspective. I can also see how you would disbelieve the lizard stuff as well, didn’t you say you don subscribe to the UFOs and aliens info as well? That’s OK, it only in formation anyway.<br><br>Look wood! I think the average person will always get confused and not see the wood for the trees, you can’t re-educate everyone, that’s how TPTB get on in this world, one is only responsible for oneself at the end of the day!<br><br>Without malice<br> <br>PEACE

Got this from wikipedia: confirm or deny?<br><br>According to writer David Icke, 7-foot (2.1 m) tall, blood-drinking reptilian humanoids from the star system Alpha Draconis are the force behind a worldwide conspiracy directed at humanity. The reptilians maintain their control through the generation of fear and negative emotion, which is food to these entities, by manufacturing conflicts, primarily wars. He contends that most of the world’s leaders are in fact related to these reptilians. Icke’s theories now have supporters in 47 countries and he frequently gives lectures to crowds of 2500 or more.<br><br>According to an interview with David Icke, Christine Fitzgerald claims that she was a confidante of Diana, Princess of Wales, and that Diana told her that the British Royal Family were reptilian aliens, and that they could shapeshift. Icke also claims that many presidents of the United States have been and are reptilian humanoids. In his view, United States foreign policy after September 11 is the product of a reptilian conspiracy to enslave humanity completely in a “New World Order,” with George W. Bush and other minor and major political figures being the conduits used for the unfolding of this Reptilian conspiracy.<br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid<br><br>In 1999, Icke wrote and published The Biggest Secret: The Book that Will Change the World, in which he identified the extraterrestrial prison warders as reptilians from the constellation Draco. They walk erect and appear to be human, living not only on the planets they come from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the earth. They have cross-bred with humans, which has created “hybrids” who are “possessed” by the full-blooded reptilians. The reptiles’ hybrid reptilian-human DNA allows them to change from reptilian to human form if they consume human blood. Icke has drawn parallels with the 1980s science-fiction series V, in which the earth is taken over by reptiloid aliens disguised as humans.<br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

It was a great discussion! I think Hereward has a certain function to collect hard facts/evidence for the event 9/11 that put the evilarchs into orbit.  There are millions of sheeple who still believe their tv’s and Herewards website can provide good stuff for these sceptics to chew on, IF they want. But I’m over it personally, I realised the agenda the same day 9/11 happened.  I drew an astrology chart and I saw the biggest ever collective projection happening and I understood that it was “the pot calling the kettle black”.  Evidence is easy to find if you want to believe, and hard to find if you want to disbelieve. Some people, especially men if I may say so, think that the only valid means of knowing “truth” is scientifc ie empirical data.  But half of the world’s population are women! and most of us, we have radar. In this patriarchal world where science and rationalism are god, I am not interested in trying to prove intuition gut feelings etc to sceptics and to rationalists because they have ego armour, very tiring, and if they do not have the intuitive/feeling psyche then no amount of argument will help them understand it anyway. However I do acknowledge the rational view has its place, I just say its not the entire spectrum of knowing, but it is currently the culturally acceptable one.<br>Re ETs: skeptics should take a long hard look at: the platform at Baalbek, Macchu Pichu, the lid of Palenque, Lloyd Pye’s “Starchild skull”, the crystal skulls, and the various domed skulls, that have been found. (Some were created trying to “emulate” the gods, But some were the actual result of cross breeding ..) Also see Icke and Credo Mutwa, do you think this zulu was paid to tell lies?<br>Now with regard to holo deniers. Don’t bother even having an opinion till you have read David Irving! He did the “scientific experiment” for you guys. Then ask ‘que bono’?  Why no doco? Because they wouldn’t even let the guy talk in THIS country, later they gaoled him.  Hello? Why? why why why.<br>Also essential reading to understand this holo “theory” and the entire history of the Jews from woe to go and their goal of global domination: Read “The Controversy of Zion” Douglas Reed. Can be hard to find (again why?) but someone has posted it as a pdf file on the net. You want evidence, now Reed was a reporter for the Times at this period and observed the machinations first hand. He quit journalism because he was not allowed to tell the truth. <br>Re antisemitism it is a misnomer, as the Khazars are not semites (ie descended from Shem) so find out about this thirteenth tribe before you can understand the Jewish con and the reems of disinfo that maintain the controversy on the Jewish problem. (That Reed book will do it for you, if not Arthur Koestler the 13th tribe.)<br>Re Icke: I had just begun my research on why is there a serpent or reptile in every creation myth you can find, when I found out that Icke had this reptilian thing happening. Now from what we already know, the truth is stranger than fiction! So we just have to say the jury is still out, that’s unless you have seen one. It certainly fits, but it is outside of our notions of possibility. Ok now before, so was space travel. However this hardly credible Reptilian Agenda thing is probably David Ickes best protector.  Those who would silence speakers of Truth can write him off as an idiot, thus he gets to keep on breathing, so that’s good isn’t it?<br>Now Darwin had a theory and at school we were taught what “theory” means.  It is still a theory but it is presented as fact.  Why? When you realise he was a Freemason, then perhaps you can smell the rat.  Anyway the creation myths came from somewhere. And how come Eve’s desire for an apple betrayed mankind?  See I have asked questions for a decade and if you can’t ask questions you won’t learn! Because disinformation has been going on for millenia! It seems to me that some non human creature, so called reptile, deceived Eve and he/it was the father of Cain, so this is how far back I am looking for the lies and deceptions. My point is that the hard evidence/rational/male brain truth radar device is not the only one happening.  Mythology is only so called because the mists of time have turned truth into chinese whispers, all I can say is digging and ferreting is lots of fun, this whole jigsaw puzzle of truth is the most exciting thing in my opinion.<br>Hats off to David Icke, he gets people thinking, he shakes somnambulists, no DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER, what a brave and WONDERFUL man. I just wish I could give this guy a great big hug! <br>I would like to find out who is the aircraft fueller as if we could prove chemtrails do not exist we could take major stress off millions of frightened disilluioned people. I fail to understand Hereward saying Carnicom was emotionally manipulating. My impression was quite the opposite. I have researched Chemtrails at length, to me, to us, they are real and very threatening phenomenon.<br>Evidence, or suspicion or mythology, everyone’s search for truth is valid and important! as you know all truth is at first ridiculed. Thank you guys you all have an important role to play whoever you are.

P.S. from Jane, re Charlie a blood drinker? Have a look at Bill Schnoebelen’s testimony, blood drinker turned Jesus freak. Cant give url but the Prophecy club is where he gave this talk called “Exposing the Illuminati from Within”.

I enjoyed part two of the “Tale of Two Truth Movements” much more than part one which I found a bit dogmatic and bitchy.  I appreciated the way in which everyone was able to accommodate different viewpoints and the respectful manner in which each party dealt with each other.  Unfortunately this respect for others opinions and methods was a little absent in part one.  I also appreciated the way in which Hereward ensured that the major areas of disagreement were directly debated rather allowing the panel to skirt around the issues so that no one would get upset.<br><br>I think that the it is valid to approach “truth” by both the rational/empirical/scientific method and via other more intuitive methods (often based on direct, personal experience that is difficult to prove by objective and repeatable means).  <br><br>With respect to the belief that “awakening” people to new information is best achieved by providing systematic and rationally irrefutable facts… I believe that this belief betrays the prejudices inherant within the people making this claim.  Someone who must be presented with rationally objective evidence before they are willing to believe in something is likely to project this learning method onto everyone else and will further assume that it’s the most effective method – particularly in our society in which the scientific method dominates.  <br><br>Ironically, I should think that the empirical results of their efforts to date might give the empiricists cause to reflect.  <br><br>My unscientific guess is that 99% of the public have complete faith in the official explanataion for the 9/11 attacks (that an evil arab mastermind who lives in a remote cave was fully responsible and that the destruction of WTC 7 was just plain unlucky), despite accompanying data which shows that hundreds of worthy empiricists have worked for years (indeed “devoted their lives!”) to provide scientifically irrefutable evidence in direct opposition to the official explanation.  So… aren’t we to deduce from both data sets that the scientific approach isn’t working too well?  Perhaps those very scientists might reasonably deduce the need to adopt new methods which sit outside their original assumptions and run them in conjunction with their current methods. <br><br>This is not to diminish the excellent efforts of the many people who approach the truth via empirical methods (for the most part I do this) and who put a lot of effort into disseminating empirical truth. <br><br>As to the belief that people who are awakened via the scientific method are more likely to take direct and effective action to change the world than those who are awakened via unscientific methods… surely that assumption is just a teeny weeny bit silly.  A pure rationalist would never admit to such a belief as he/she would never be able to back it up with objective evidence.  <br><br>At times I was reminded of the scene in the “Life of Brian” in which the anti-Roman liberation groups hated each other.  <br><br>“Are you the Judean People’s Front?” <br>“F**k off!!  We’re the People’s Front of Judea!”<br><br>This seems to be the unfortunate characteristic of any group which seeks to disrupt the status quo.  As Adam Davis stated, you all agree on pretty much the same end-game.  So rather that focus on the differences, why not focus on the overlapping goals?  The people who seek to maintain the status quo will remain united behind money, centralised power and the urge to crush dissent.  Perhaps you could learn something from their ability to unite. <br><br>My other reaction was to question the need to “awaken” people.  I’ve often thought about this and after years of trying to preach to people about “truth” I’ve decided that this method doesn’t work unless people give signals that they actually want to listen.  Nor should it work: if we assume that people are capable, intelligent and their own best judge of what’s best for them then none of us should preach to anyone who doesn’t want to listen.  They have their own path.  To coerce people into believing your truth is to act like the leaders that the truth movements claim to oppose.  I shudder when I read the term “sheeple” – it’s so condescending and dismissive of the sheer wonder inherant within every human being. (I’m all too often guilty of expressing similar sentiments so I’m not claiming to be perfect here.)

Evan said “My unscientific guess is that 99% of the public have complete faith in the official explanataion for the 9/11 attacks (that an evil arab mastermind who lives in a remote cave was fully responsible and that the destruction of WTC 7 was just plain unlucky)”<br><br>G’day Evan,<br><br>You said some interesting things in your post! <br><br>Due to the great work of the 9/11 Truth seekers about 6 out 10 world wide question the events on that day and about 3 out of ten completely reject the official story, suspecting an inside job? It is also probable the reason we have not seen any other major false flag in the west is due to the general awareness of such…<br><br>Kind regards John Bursill

Hi John<br><br>Wow—parallel universes must be true after all because the one I inhabit doesn’t include 30% of people believing that 9/11 was an inside job.  I assume parallel universes exist by the way so this isn’t meant as an insult.  Maybe if you are heavily involved in the 9/11 movement you are constantly surrounded by people less inclined to accept standard dogma.  Out of every human being I know in the world only one questions the official version of 9/11.  I’m very well travelled and I meet a wide range of people so I would assume that I would have more chance of meeting the type of people who back your version of events than someone working in a 9-5 job and living in the suburbs.  But of course this anecodatal, real-world experience of mine (which heavily colours my perception) isn’t scientific.  <br><br>I’m also inclined to dismiss the supposedly scientific data sourced from questionaires when they seem completely out of kilter with the rest of the world.  If 30% of average joe six-packs were so radical that they believe that 9/11 was an inside job then:<br> - Rupert Murdoch wouldn’t sell as many newspapers as he does, right across the globe<br>- Australian commercial television stations wouldn’t have over 80% viewing share (or whatever it is…. I know that SBSs and ABCs share is tiny)<br>- 90%+ people wouldn’t bank with the major financial insitutions in the world<br>- the two dominant political parties in most countries wouldn’t attract over 80% of the popular vote in most national elections; only a miniscule minority vote for candidates expressing genuinely alternative platforms (Christian fundamentalists aside)<br>- etc. <br><br>Perhaps my opinions are also coloured by my being a Westerner.  Perhaps the 80% of the world’s population living in developing countries are more open-minded.  But I lived and worked in Mumbai for 3 years (04-07) and I found that everyone was even less cynical about their government’s nationalistic stance than we were in the West.  Of course they thought their government was corrupt but when it came to “national security” issues they backed the status quo.  No one I know, for instance, would even dream of labelling the recent attacks in southern Mumbai as a false flag. <br><br>Where did you get those stats?<br><br>You’ve responded and sought to counteract only one of the points raised in my post.  If you have time and inclination, I’d be interested to hear you guys express your views on the other points.<br><br>Thanks for hosting this site.  It’s good to find Australian-based sites like this.  It’s frustrating trying to find alternative information concerning Australia.  I cancelled my Crikey subscription, for instance, after being disgusted with the way they were covering the financial crisis.  <br><br>Cheers<br>Evan

Evan, <br><br>Firstly thanks for your thoughtful response. <br><br>However I find myself a bit confused by your words, and I’m not sure if I really understand your argument.<br><br>As I see it at this stage our only hope of proving what really happened or did not happen on 9/11 is scientific method complemented by careful historical analysis and rigorous debate. <br><br>I’m not quite sure what your alternative method is? <br><br>Prophecy? Astrology? Tea leaf reading?<br><br>in regard your question “So rather that focus on the differences, why not focus on the overlapping goals?” <br> <br>- our goal is to get the truth out, pure and simple. Since that is our primary goal then differences in the perception of the meaning of “truth” are obviously going to be a problem for us aren’t they?<br><br>cheers and thanks for posting (:

Hi Hereward,<br><br>My main point is that your hope of reaching the end-game that you all agreed on in the radio interview (helping people to free themselves from a state of powerlessness and external control, or something like that) can be accomplished by:<br><br>1.  “a scientific method complemented by careful historical analysis and rigorous debate” <br><br>*and*<br><br>2.  whatever else works for other individuals, whether it be prophesy, astrology, tea leaf reading, reptillians, UFOs, and other things that those who exclusively operate using a scientific method would label “rubbish” and snigger at.<br><br>My preference is for the scientific method and I agree with most of what you guys are saying.  I’m left very uneasy by the content of Project Avalon, for instance, and the way in which they propagate their views.  However, that’s just me and that’s just you.  There are billions out there who I believe will never be “awakened” by a scientific approach, they’ll just ignore facts and cling to unprovable beliefs.  You may have 100 irrefutable data points which should explode their belief at any second and they still won’t listen.  You can research for 8 more years and discover another 100 data points and they still won’t listen because that’s not how they form their beliefs.  Organised religion is central to the majority of lives on the planet which is madness as far as I’m concerned but that’s where we find ourselves.<br><br>If you accept that the end-game is to awaken people then does it really matter how they get there?  At the very least, isn’t there an opportunity to work openly with people with whom you share the same end-game but disagree on the way to get there?<br><br>Cheers<br>Evan

OK, a few points to make here. Firstly I’m not an “end justifies the means” type of person. And since we are claiming to be a truth movement this makes it doubly incumbent on us to be as honest as we can. So I would not want to tell lies in order to “wake people up”.<br><br>Secondly I think there’s two different goals. One is to get the truth out. The other is to empower people. My main focus is the first - because I believe that empowerment will come from knowing the truth.<br><br>I don’t deny there are other ways to help empower people, but if they involved telling fibbs or dodgy research I would be against them no matter how “effective” they were, because they would be working against my main goal which is communicating the truth.<br><br>cheers (:

Wow—a blunt response indeed.  I guess that clears that up.<br><br>Good luck with your goals.<br><br>Cheers<br>Evan

Adam, yours was a brief and relevant intro to bring a forum that can unify many sectors of the truth movement into a cohesive force. Perhaps a list of mechanisms used by the poweres that be that control our thinking could be given to raise awareness amonst the awakening population with specific exaples of how those mechansims have successfully controlled our thinking. Maybe by doing so you will dramatically raise people’s awareness as they relate those mechanisms today with the past. Do things really ever change?  Mark

Hi guys<br> <br>I did listen to the interview, and decided to make some comments.<br> <br>I could certainly agree with just about all of you ....<br> <br>Although, I can also say with certainty, that I’m over all the 911 stuff…<br>911 is just the tip of the iceberg, so I don’t beleive it’s worth all the <br>fuss it gets.<br> <br>The point is, as I’m sure that all in the interview agreed upon also, was <br>that something BIG is happening !<br> <br>And what are we going to do about it ? Thats the big question, as I’m sure <br> you know <br> <br>Re: the interview-<br> <br> You are all getting the info out there…<br> You all realise that we are fed lies…<br> None of us KNOW the full truth…<br> None of us really know what is before us…<br> None of us know how to react to a scenario we’re not sure of….<br> We know that we should be uniting… (and thanks for your efforts)<br> <br> But this must happen on a community level…<br> <br>I just see a whole lot of ignorant people out there :-(<br> <br>I can only see that communities will form after the shit hits the fan…<br> <br>And so, what happens if I store food whilst awaiting the impending disasters<br> <br>ahead ?... How can I eat it if my friends, family and neighbors are starving<br>because of the collapse of the economic foundation that we all depend on ?<br><br>How long would food rations last if you fed everyone that wanted for <br> something ?<br> <br>So is this just going to end in a massive social killing spree, or what…<br> <br>Or what ?...<br> <br>What are the options…<br> <br>When the shit hits the fan, will we still be arguing over 911 ?<br> <br>Just my thoughts <br> <br>Cheers from rusty